From: "Kate" <lynati_1.>
Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:57 pm
Subject: Re: [TGS] Proposal ideas for season 5-6

[I never intended while outlining "Black and White" that Fenris was
connected to the gargoyle clan, and I guess they would have
mentioned it to Arthur and Mary if they did. ]

I don't believe they do any more. They may not have even known about
him. (Do they know about him before Arthur and co. name him? I can't
remember. If not, that adds support to my theory that they had no
clue.) They were put there to guard the area from anyone showing up;
the Fae were counting on the Gargoyle's natural protective and
territorial instincts to keep out anyone who may have come in search
of the wolf.

They don't know that Fenris was the reason they were moved to that
land; it being a history for them doesn't change the Pendragon story
plot at all. I was trying to be careful of that. That's why I didn't
make the hatchling trade idea as having been mentioned back then; I
didn't want to add any extra material that would effect "Black and
White".

[I think it would be more interesting to have the gargoyles head to
the South Pole in search of sanctuary from humans.]

I just can't think of a logical way they could get there. They
couldn't fly the distance. I doubt they would have had the know-how
to hijack a ship and sail it there, even if it wasn't for the fact
that Antarctica wasn't even sighted by human eyes until 1819. (You
ould flub history a little bit, I suppose. But even if you had them
use magic to get there, they couldn't have known for fact the
continent even existed.) Plus, the fact that they speak English at
all, when they haven't seen humans in so long that they have become
myth...when the first humans only set foot in Antarctica for the
first time in 1899? In an area that was unlikely anywhere near the
clan's home? That seemed to imply to me they'd been moved from
somewhere where they had at least glimmer of the language.

Or do we have another reason why they can speak the tongue?

(This is why I always thought having them in the *Arctic* made more
sense. People have lived there before, and gargoyles could have
crossed the land bridge at the same time as humans did. But it's moot
now.)

[The various clan trades at the council sound okay. If season 5
doesn't start until Christmas, can "Alone" be pushed forward a
couple of months so that the chronology of season 4 is a bit more
flexible? (As it stands, around 13 episodes take place in 3 months)]

Sure. We just wanted a bit of space between the two seasons.

[I like the Brooklyn/Demona stuff, but the relationship angst – while
promising – doesn't particularly interest me.]
It interests me. Gargoyles has been a stage for many "human" issues
in the past, and divorce has yet to be one of them. Goliath and
Demona don't count in this sense, as I'm thinking more how it affects
the children of such families, and Angela was never in a custody
battle.

Umm...well, arguably she still *is*, but you know what I mean.

[This feels like the sort of thing that should be looked at in
`Timedancer' even though I know it takes place after that time
period.]

Actually, we initially thought it *was* going to happen during
Timedancer, when Sata found out about Pandora's egg. But looking at
the season, trying to work a whole relationship crumbling and being
rebuilt while timedancing, with two young children quite dependant on
their parents, and then showing up in Manhattan with nary a sign of
the problem, and Sata not recognizing Chiang Yun in the present...

The former is waaay overcomplicating an already complicated set of
plotlines, and the latter just doesn't feel quite right.

[I wonder if season 5 `Timedancer' could feature an episode which
has flashbacks tying all this kind of thing together,]

It hasn't happened yet. It was set up in "A tale of two gates"
(title?) that Brooklyn got together with Pandora while she was in
heat, and was bespelled at the time. The character Chiang Yun was
created to be Brooklyn's offspring of some generation from that
union. Brooklyn and Sata and Ariana run into Pandora again next
season, and wind up dropping off the Egg in China when they get
Graeme.

(the rough for Timedancer's next season went back and harvested a
slew of unused outlines from the secure site, including a version of
Rahsaan Footman/ J. Gray's idea of the four being split up and sent
to separate times.)

[since it would prove an interesting comparison piece to the twenty-
second century material, and a sort of `Gargoyles' crossover episode.]

Except that TD 5 is set before Gargs 5, and Angela and Broadway and
them can't mention Brooklyn's past to him. We may see them personally
flashingback/referencing it, but it can't be openly discussed.

[to prevent the main series from becoming too Brooklyn-centric and to
give more development of the central relationship in `Timedancer'.]

That's why we're working it over two seasons- so that it doesn't get
an unbalanced (in proportion to the rest of the clan) amount of
attention.

It's a sublot, something that will have ramifications, but does not
need to be focused on- or truly, even mentioned- in every story.

[On the 11 September issue, I like the idea of ending an episode with
Goliath waking up and realising something's wrong, and then saying
no more. I think any future tirades by Demona or what have you
should be used very, very sparingly. It just feels a bit tasteless
to me. This seems to be the intent anyway, of course.]

I don't have any tirades by Demona planned, I could just see her
using it as an example. The fact that I think Lex should tell the
twins at one point to avoid "that area" is to show that Manhattan of
the series is feeling aftereffects, too- otherwise it will look as
though we noted 9/11's existence then went on to utterly ignore any
impact it had.

[Brooklyn/Pandora… I don't know. I still don't like it especially,
magic spell or no.]

Like I said, it was set up to be this way. It's not a sudden decision
just for the hell of it. It was written with the intent that she got
pregnant.

[Still, the plot ends here are pretty good. If they were to just get
back together further down the line, then I'd say it's just cheap
emotional string-pulling and should be dumped. As it is, I'm only
convinced that it's emotional string-pulling.]

If she had lived, we are convinced they would not have. Simply too
much shit has passed between them. There should be enough to show
that a renewed relationship would not have worked between
them...while leaving enough so that those who emotionally could not
fathom such a thing happening can still delude themselves into
thinking that, had things gone differently, it would have
been "happily ever after".

..."happily ever after" is not a common theme in Gargoyles, as I'm
sure you are all aware.
The tragedy is, of course, that Brooklyn will never get to find out.

(That "tragic" factor is why we allowed them to "make up" to a degree
at all. We were just going to leave them separated until we realized
Sata would make a good casualty for the battle, as well as all the
emotional issues it would later trigger. A lot has been built on her
death, but we decided to give Brooklyn that much slack by letting him
at least start to make up with her. Let him have a dream of "happily
ever after" as well, but with the bitterness of not knowing.)

[The Mayoral primaries won't be Demona's *first* strike against
humanity, of course.]

of course. Greg's handling that angle, I don't know what else- if
there is anything else yet- is planned.

[Why do the seasons have to start and end on holidays? Important
stuff happens on other days too, after all.]

It was just for reference, really.

[I think it would be neater if Aurora didn't leave Manhattan in the
first place rather than have her `happen' to survive.]

Frankly, I agree, but there were reasons that I didn't decide on and
don't presently remember as to why she returned to her clan. I think
she isn't presently planning on joining Manhattan permanently, she's
just there on exchange.

[The battle of the gargoyles is definitely not the note I think the
series should end on but it has some potential.]

It doesn't have to be the end of the series, necessarily. The season
can be tweaked to have several episodes following it...and more is
supposed to be going on with the gargoyles relationship to humanity
at the time. I just don't know what, but obviously we will be
continuing to focus on that main series theme as well.

[I think the same material with Pandora's egg can be covered without
retconning Nudnik's original time period.]

Brooklyn knows Mei Hsing when she was younger. Chiang Yun is only a
couple generations below Mei Hsing. In order for Brooklyn to be
friends with Mei Hsing, he and his family have to visit China more
than once.

[I'm curious to see the rest of the "history".]

You won't like it, it's much too plotted out in places. You say we
need freedom for future stories...I'm saying we're at those future
stories, and can lock in as much as we desire. Once TD and Gargs are
over, so are the main developments of the universe that we have to
watch out for.

Nothing we do is going to seriously affect the other spinoffs, and
2198 might as well have firm events behind it, as it just goes
forward after it starts. *everything* is history after that.

People have already been talking about ending Gargs as early as
season five. I say we make it six, and plan the hell out of it. Let's
face it, I don't think we're going to make season 7, we're already
burning out on the edges. This art drive has been the first really
successful drive of any type for a while. But my point is, we don't
have to keep events open any more, since they aren't going to be part
of plotted storylines between the end of Gargs and when Brooklyn and
Sata arrive in the future in "crossraods".

(tho the idea of doing single-shot, unrelated eps set throughout
that timeframe as a separate single-season spinoff has come to mind.)

So after season 6 ends, and prior to Future Tense Timedancer, there
is a lot of things that have happened but don't need to be especially
focused on. I got to thinking how the hell Wyvern is still a full
clan in the future, if Goliath and Elisa don't have kids, Broadway
and Angela and theirs nipped off to Avalon for a while, Ari and
Graeme- and any kids of theirs- aren't present, and as far as we know
no offspring of Lex's.

Even if Ari, Graeme, Lex, and Delilah had kids, that's not enough to
give the Manhattan clan the population it has now. That was part of
the reason for bringing the few that lived in Antarctica permanently
to Manhattan. Anyway, I came up with ideas for how the rest of the
clan built up over the years, and got carried away, as I usually do.
Most of the info won't ever likely even be mentioned; it is just
there for reference.

*pauses*

You know, I think I'll mail it directly to you. And I already know
there is going to be stuff you don't approve of...but really, in a
lot of cases it is going to come down to "what difference does it
make?".

And unless someone is writing for season 5 of TD, the anwser
is "none".

-Lynati